MicaSim meeting 20090319

MicaSim meeting March 19, 2009 7am PDT/SLT

[7:08] Pema Pera: Welcome everybody!

[7:08] Pema Pera: We have been holding these meetings for several weeks now

[7:08] Pema Pera: and perhaps it is a good time to decide what to do in the next few weeks and months, at least roughly

[7:08] Pema Pera: We just switched from voice to text, in order to produce a self-contained chat log

[7:09] Pema Pera: If I can summarize briefly what we have done so far:

[7:09] Pema Pera: -- we have talked about getting the ACS introductory book on stellar dynamics translated for use in SL

[7:09] Pema Pera: -- we have seen Prospero's three-body simulations in ACS

[7:10] Pema Pera: -- we have talked about the use of OpenSim, which was pioneered by Adam and Jeff and Will, last summer

[7:10] Pema Pera: I think that is about it -- did I leave anything out?

[7:10] Troy McLuhan: The wiki was started

[7:11] Pema Pera: ah yes, important point too, thanks!

[7:11] Pema Pera: So for the future plans, there are at least three obvious projects:

[7:11] Prospero Frobozz has to admit to once again not having gotten around to putting his 3-body LSL simulation into the wiki ;(

[7:12] Pema Pera: 1) translating the ACS intro for SL use

[7:12] Pema Pera: 2) documenting the 3-body simulations in SL

[7:12] Pema Pera: 3) documenting what has been done so far in OpenSim

[7:12] MICA seminar seat whispers: Hi Zinia Quan! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.

[7:13] Prospero Frobozz: Pema : you say that the current ACS 'source code' is something from which you generate LaTeX, HTML, etc.

[7:13] Pema Pera: It would be wonderful if someone could use our wiki to bring some structure into our future, so as to have a good overview of these three projects, and other projects to come

[7:13] Pema Pera: (will get to that, Pros)

[7:13] Pema Pera: that is the top level question

[7:13] Prospero Frobozz: (ok)

[7:13] Pema Pera: it would be great to have a Maitre D' or head honcho or what to call it

[7:13] Pema Pera: conductor

[7:14] Pema Pera: I myself simply don't have the time to do that

[7:14] Pema Pera: and frankly, nobody here may have the time but. ..

[7:14] Pema Pera:. . I hope someone will :-)

[7:14] Pema Pera: any takers?

[7:14] Prospero Frobozz wants to have the time, but knows he shouldn't commit

[7:14] Pema Pera same

[7:14] Pema Pera: we can volunteer Eamu since he isn't here :-)

[7:15] Pema Pera: or is he?

[7:15] Prospero Frobozz: w00t!

[7:15] Pema Pera: Ah!

[7:15] Eamu Godenot: Me, too, I think, but some clarification, Pema: is the conductor responsible for coordinating all this stuff via the wiki.

[7:15] Pema Pera: Eamu?

[7:15] Eamu Godenot: Hi.

[7:15] Prospero Frobozz: I think we can divide the conductor role up.

[7:15] Prospero Frobozz: Coordinating is good

[7:15] Pema Pera: hehehe

[7:15] Prospero Frobozz: But we need somebody to just provide some starting structure on the front page

[7:15] Prospero Frobozz: And then, ideally, some substructure below that, perhaps

[7:15] Eamu Godenot: Or is the conductor responsible for setting the goals and agenda?

[7:15] Pema Pera: yes

[7:16] Pema Pera: good questions -- not obvious

[7:16] Prospero Frobozz: I don't think the conductor has to set goals and such, but shoudl tkae the "consensus" from these meetings and have that expressed in the very very high level basic structure on the wiki

[7:16] Pema Pera: but the need for structure *is* obvious

[7:16] Eamu Godenot: Yes, I agree.

[7:16] Pema Pera: perhaps each project should have a project "contractor"

[7:16] Pema Pera: or "conductor" or whatever

[7:16] Prospero Frobozz: "absolute dictator"

[7:16] Prospero Frobozz: "czar"

[7:17] Pema Pera: or a team of two or three (but not seven) people

[7:17] Pema Pera: few enough to keep them feeling resonsible!

[7:17] Prospero Frobozz will volunteer to be the project leader for the LSL 3-body, since he's the one who knows the most about it

[7:17] Prospero Frobozz: And, really, honest, some year I will get that code on the wiki!

[7:17] Eamu Godenot: And I can document what Adam, Jeff and I have *done* on the wiki.

[7:18] Eamu Godenot: But, one of them would be better positioned to document what is coming next, since they're more active working on the code that I am.

[7:18] Pema Pera will volunteer to be the project co-leader for the ACS intro, as long as there are at least one and ideally two other co-leaders

[7:18] MICA seminar seat whispers: Hi Smilla Silvercloud! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.

[7:18] Eamu Godenot: Pema, I have a question about the translation of ACS to the wiki.

[7:18] Smilla Silvercloud: hi

[7:18] Prospero Frobozz: I think it's worth considering the "N-body physics engine in OpenSim" and the "Import external data stream for visualization" projects as two different things

[7:19] Pema Pera: so perhaps Adam, Jeff, and Eamu as project co-leaders for OpenSim?

[7:19] Eamu Godenot: Yes, Pros.

[7:19] Pema Pera: yes

[7:19] Eamu Godenot: I was talking about the OPenSim physics engine.

[7:19] Eamu Godenot: I'm not really qualified at all to write something about the data stream stuff.

[7:19] Prospero Frobozz: I think Adam mentioned that they've also written some code for the latter

[7:19] Eamu Godenot: They have.

[7:19] Pema Pera: George may be interestied in visualization, and so will Lagrange and Ico, I bet

[7:19] Pema Pera: all of whom are not here, I believe

[7:20] Pema Pera looking around

[7:20] Prospero Frobozz: George is probably asleep :)

[7:20] MICA seminar seat whispers: Hi Lakhesis Destiny! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.

[7:20] Pema Pera: Hi Somon/Lak!

[7:20] Pema Pera: *Simon

[7:20] Lakhesis Destiny: Hi Piet, eh .. Pema. Fun to be back,

[7:21] Pema Pera: Do we need someone to coordinate the project coordinators?

[7:21] Prospero Frobozz: So, let's vote on the motion that Simon is going to do everything... all in favor?

[7:21] Pema Pera: :)

[7:21] Prospero Frobozz: Pema : I think that we don't need somebody to coordinate the project coordinators per se, as long as we get enoughs tructure on the wiki that they aren't going to be stepping on each other.

[7:22] Pema Pera: okay, we can try that

[7:22] Pema Pera: meta-coordinating as a group, that is

[7:22] Pema Pera: would it be nice to have a kind of template for each project?

[7:22] Prospero Frobozz: Yeah

[7:22] Prospero Frobozz: Pema : Hmm... I think it might be better to let each project naturally write in the format that works?

[7:23] Pema Pera: so that you can go in and read immediately what the project is about, why, by whom?

[7:23] Eamu Godenot: I agree with Pros.

[7:23] Prospero Frobozz: That is, Wikipedia clearly has a template for their articles, but since each project is bigger, this doesn't need as much formalism.

[7:23] Prospero Frobozz: Well, OK, that much might be good

[7:23] Prospero Frobozz: A "project front page" header template.

[7:23] Prospero Frobozz: Lightweight

[7:23] Pema Pera: What I strongly dislike about various forges is that for most projects I have *no* idea what it is about and how/why/what

[7:23] Eamu Godenot: Well, maybe a who-what-where-when-why.

[7:23] Eamu Godenot: Initial format for the article.

[7:23] Prospero Frobozz: Yeah -- so top of the front page we should make a template that makes it fast to jump from project to project to see what it is.

[7:23] Pema Pera: I agree, light-weight

[7:23] Pema Pera: yes

[7:24] Prospero Frobozz: We can define some wiki thingies that make the template all in the same format if we use some lightweight formaism for specifying it.

[7:24] Eamu Godenot: So, how does one make a template in mediawiki?

[7:24] Pema Pera: and less confusing that way, all the same style

[7:24] Prospero Frobozz: Eamu : I've done it, but I'd have to go back and look up what I ddi to remember.

[7:24] Prospero Frobozz: It's fairly easy, and you can make a template that takes parameters

[7:24] Pema Pera: you see, a meta-coordinator role, after all :-)

[7:24] Pema Pera: can you do that for us, Pros?

[7:24] Prospero Frobozz: The office hours used for Lindens on wiki.secondlife.com is an example

[7:25] Prospero Frobozz: Yeah... although I'm going away tomorrow and won't be back all weekend, so I won't be able to do it before next week.

[7:25] Prospero Frobozz: And, if I'm going to really get it done, I'll need to be reminded on Monday or Tuesday :D

[7:25] Pema Pera: :-)

[7:25] Pema Pera: Also, we need these chat logs, that we are now writing, to be posted on the wiki

[7:25] Eamu Godenot: I can remind you, Pros---I'll try to write up some stuff about our OpenSim engine this weekend, so I'll be thinking "gee, I wish I had a template for this".

[7:26] Pema Pera: Any chat log posting volunteer?

[7:27] Prospero Frobozz: I can do it with a minimum of pain

[7:27] Prospero Frobozz: But, again, I'll need ar eminder :)

[7:28] Pema Pera: You see, I'm happy to get this group started, and to make sure I'm here every week, and to contrbute to the ACS part that I know most about, but I have many irons in the fire, and we really have to spread the work, if we are to proceed. . . I can post the logs myself, of course, but it is a relatively simple operation, and there is a limit to what Pros and I can do. . ..

[7:28] Pema Pera: Pros, you are already so oversubscribed

[7:28] Pema Pera: it makes more sense to pick your brains for something more high level

[7:29] Pema Pera: when I first came into SL, I did many things like chat log posting, etc but by now I have so many roles in so many branches of Kira and MICA, that I can't take on all the small stuff anymore, completely impossible

[7:30] Paradox Olbers: I could do the chatlog posting, save coordinators a little time....

[7:30] Smilla Silvercloud: sorry all, someone's banging on my office door --- got to go to a rl meeting!

[7:30] Prospero Frobozz: That'd be great, Paradox, if you could do that.

[7:30] Smilla Silvercloud: bye

[7:30] Paradox Olbers: bye Smilla :)

[7:30] Pema Pera: yes, Paradox, that would be wonderful!

[7:30] Pema Pera: Thank you very much indeed.

[7:31] Prospero Frobozz: Paradox : to gets started, just make a master "Chat Log" page, and link the logs from there

[7:31] Prospero Frobozz: We will make sure to get the chat log page linked from somewhere intelligent in the hierarchy

[7:31] Prospero Frobozz: I'm not sure who has accounts on the wiki right now; do we have to contact Adam to get one?

[7:31] Paradox Olbers: and mention the wiki url here now, please :)

[7:32] Eamu Godenot: micasim.org

[7:32] Pema Pera: I'll send Adam an email on the MICA simulations list

[7:32] Pema Pera: asking him, and asking for volunteers

[7:32] Pema Pera: yes http://micasim.org/

[7:33] Pema Pera: I will send a summary of today's meeting to the simulations group

[7:34] Pema Pera: Well, progress :-) !

[7:34] Pema Pera: What shall we discuss next? Individual projects?

[7:35] Pema Pera:

[7:13] Prospero Frobozz: Pema : you say that the current ACS 'source code' is something from which you generate LaTeX, HTML, etc.

[7:35] Pema Pera: the answer is yes

[7:35] Pema Pera: a kind of ruby modified simple document system

[7:36] Pema Pera: probably we want something different for our project

[7:36] Pema Pera: or maybe not

[7:36] Prospero Frobozz: Well, for this project, the easiest is of course MediaWiki markup....

[7:36] MICA seminar seat whispers: Hi Makino Magic! Touch me for Menu. Say /1a to Adjust.

[7:36] Prospero Frobozz: Sicne that's where the project lives

[7:36] Prospero Frobozz: But that's not the most flexible format in the world.

[7:36] Pema Pera: does that allow math?

[7:36] Pema Pera: through LaTeX perhaps?

[7:36] Prospero Frobozz: I think it allows math in LaTeX format -- assuming that extension is installed

[7:37] Eamu Godenot: Yes, you write some LaTeX inside a special marker, and it formats it properly.

[7:38] Pema Pera: Okay, I think we have three to-do's here:

[7:38] Pema Pera: Paradox will post logs, with Pema writing Adam and Paradox to make sure Para has privelege

[7:38] Pema Pera: Pema reminds Pros on Monday to come up with a template :-)

[7:39] Pema Pera: Pros to install the templates

[7:39] Eamu Godenot: Eamu to document the OpenSim physics engine work in the wiki.

[7:39] Pema Pera: I think it will make a lot of difference to have clear pigeon holes for to-do stuff

[7:39] Pema Pera: Yes, that will be great Eamu

[7:40] Pema Pera: Eamu, you can start writing and then hang the pages from the template-generated page for your project, once it become available

[7:40] Eamu Godenot: That's my plan.

[7:40] Prospero Frobozz: I've just edited the "REsearch" page on the main MICA wiki to link to http://micasim.org, and to mention these meetings

[7:41] Pema Pera: Is there something else we should discuss?

[7:41] Pema Pera: WOnderful!

[7:41] Eamu Godenot: Also, I've already set up a reminder in my calendar to bug Pros on Monday.

[7:41] Prospero Frobozz: :)

[7:41] Eamu Godenot: So you don't have to, Pema.

[7:41] Prospero Frobozz: Thanks

[7:41] Pema Pera envies Pros's multitasking capabilities

[7:41] Rober1236 Jua: LOL the wiki needs for formating

[7:41] Prospero Frobozz: I'm also deploying a 32-bit build of server 1.26 to aditi :)

[7:41] Rober1236 Jua: Excuse me I have a question?

[7:42] Prospero Frobozz: (We were planning on building server 1.26 as 64-bit, but we're worried about the additional memory footprint that we get as a result of all pointers being twice as large....)

[7:42] Prospero Frobozz: Robert1236 : what's your question?

[7:42] Rober1236 Jua: Do you have some space for collaborative authoriship of documents established?

[7:42] Rober1236 Jua: That is my professional area

[7:42] Prospero Frobozz: Yes, that's the micasim wiki

[7:42] Rober1236 Jua: Wikis are not great for making papers

[7:42] Rober1236 Jua: I have had a lot of experience with this

[7:43] Rober1236 Jua: workspaces are better for teams

[7:43] Eamu Godenot: Aside: I added the list of projects to the main page of the micasim.org wiki.

[7:43] Prospero Frobozz: Well, at the moment we're not specificallyt alking about papers, but we do want to build a repository that's low-barrier to add things.

[7:43] Pema Pera: what kind of workspaces are you thinking about, Robert?

[7:43] Rober1236 Jua: Well there is no point in installing it yourself IMHO

[7:44] Rober1236 Jua: If most of your users are Microsoft people with Office Office Lives gives a good collaborative document management set for free

[7:44] Prospero Frobozz: Heh

[7:44] Rober1236 Jua: Otherwise Google Docs is pretty good

[7:44] Prospero Frobozz: That rules us out right there

[7:44] Prospero Frobozz: But, no, Google Docs isn't really right for this

[7:44] Prospero Frobozz: We want it to be fully publicly readable.

[7:44] Rober1236 Jua: That is a problem

[7:45] Rober1236 Jua: Oh that is no problem

[7:45] Rober1236 Jua: you can publish the documents to the public

[7:45] Rober1236 Jua: But teams working on research will want to have some private time

[7:45] Pema Pera: not us

[7:45] Pema Pera: :)

[7:45] Pema Pera: we are fully open

[7:45] Prospero Frobozz: But we're not working on documents that way -- what we're wroking on is more akin to something like Wikipedia, something that has structure but is a growing huge interconnected beast

[7:45] Prospero Frobozz: At elast, that's the goal :)

[7:45] Pema Pera: one problem is math, we need that

[7:46] Rober1236 Jua: We do you want to present docs with unproven information of spelling errors to the public?

[7:46] Prospero Frobozz: Robert1236 : why not?

[7:46] Pema Pera: because the public is contributing

[7:46] Rober1236 Jua: Because people might download your papers and base their own research on findings

[7:46] Pema Pera: like cooks working in the restaurant, not in the kitchen behind closed doors

[7:46] Pema Pera: we don't care, Robert, since we are so specialized

[7:46] Prospero Frobozz: Yeah, these aren't papers per se.

[7:46] Pema Pera: it would be immediately obvious

[7:46] Rober1236 Jua: and most scientists won't participate without some barrier between team work and

[7:46] Pema Pera: who is plagiarizing what

[7:47] Rober1236 Jua: public publish

[7:47] Rober1236 Jua: Its not plagarism

[7:47] Rober1236 Jua: its a matter of destruction of reputation

[7:47] Pema Pera: ah, yes, you have a point, Robert, but that is for individual research projects leading to publication

[7:47] Prospero Frobozz: Well, in any event, the scientists working here are happy with the wiki format.

[7:47] Pema Pera: what we do here is different: a collaborative project to make tools

[7:47] Rober1236 Jua: No one will use this to collaborate on new research until content publishing is in place

[7:47] Prospero Frobozz: I predict in the future, esp. once we manage to get out from under the yoke of the publishing companies and their lobbiests in Washington, more and more scientists will work more openly in the public.

[7:48] Pema Pera: so that everybody can then use the tools for their own projects that lead to publications

[7:48] Prospero Frobozz: But, also, if we are going to publish papers, we'll carve out pieces and send them in for refereeing through the current usual channels.

[7:48] Prospero Frobozz: What we're talking here is'nt just pure research, but also documenting the backgroudn needed to get *into* this research.

[7:48] Rober1236 Jua: No scientist will ever work on collaboration when the risks of failure to reputation is to high

[7:48] Pema Pera: ???

[7:48] Rober1236 Jua: Sciecen is noble but not that different in pactice to any other content practice

[7:48] Prospero Frobozz: Robert1236 : WEll, that barrier demonstrably doesn't apply here, then, because there are some scientists working on it!

[7:49] Rober1236 Jua: Sciecne is conducted by teams

[7:49] Prospero Frobozz: I think you're coming with various preconceptions about control of information that simply don't apply to this group -- I think you have different basic assumptions than this group does.

[7:49] Rober1236 Jua: Teams will want to review and analysis their results before going more public

[7:49] Rober1236 Jua: Excuse me but this is my area of training and expertise

[7:49] Pema Pera: so we are the non-team team then :P

[7:50] Rober1236 Jua: I have seen open all projects come alive and no one would take part because they produced poor controls of quality

[7:50] Prospero Frobozz: And, sure, probably we'll review things before posting them on the wiki, if it's new results... or, perhaps, we'll post them with a clear marking that they're preliminary.

[7:50] Prospero Frobozz: Rober1236 : No offense, but I doubt that how this group works is more your area of expertise than it is ours....

[7:50] Rober1236 Jua: And how are you going to review those things as a group

[7:50] Rober1236 Jua: not to sound rude but it seems like you are not listening to me

[7:50] Rober1236 Jua: I fully support open science

[7:50] Rober1236 Jua: but you need a controlled collaborative period before you publish

[7:51] Rober1236 Jua: do you have a tech for that

[7:51] Prospero Frobozz: This group is currently evolving. The things that you're proposing are fairly different from the work model we're evolving. I apologize if we aren't going to change our work model to adapt to what you think we should have, but we're working the way we want to work.

[7:51] Rober1236 Jua: or are you going to pass emails back and forth?

[7:51] Eamu Godenot: Rober1236 Jua, I think you may be confused about our goals here.

[7:51] Pema Pera: Robert on http://www.artcompsci.org/ Jun Makino and I have published more than a thousand pages, immediately when we wrote it, and many people have used the results -- this is a counterexample to your theory, in practice.

[7:51] Rober1236 Jua: Your goal is to faciliate communication, collaboration, and knowledge share yes?

[7:51] Eamu Godenot: Yes.

[7:51] Eamu Godenot: Have a look at Pema's ACS.

[7:52] Eamu Godenot: That is the sort of thing we are talking about producing here.

[7:52] Rober1236 Jua: Then if you ignore everything I say know you will, like the other science projects I have seen here who have

[7:52] Rober1236 Jua: fail

[7:52] Prospero Frobozz: Rober1236 : I'll make you a deal. Come back in 6 months or a year, and if you were right, you can say "I told you so."

[7:52] Prospero Frobozz: In the mean time, we're not going to adapt to the model you want us to adapt to, so there's no point in berating us right now for not doing that....

[7:52] Pema Pera: better, Pros, look at ACS

[7:52] Pema Pera: no need to wait half a year

[7:52] Pema Pera: http://www.artcompsci.org/

[7:53] Pema Pera: already a counter example to Robert

[7:53] Rober1236 Jua: Just wondering Pema, how much collaboration experiecne do you have in large scale?

[7:53] Rober1236 Jua: In both Sciecne and Non-Science

[7:53] Pema Pera: as far as I understand Robert at least

[7:53] Prospero Frobozz chuckles

[7:53] Pema Pera: so far with teams of half a dozen people mostly

[7:53] Pema Pera: sometimes a dozen

[7:53] Prospero Frobozz: I've been involved in a collaboration that was too paranoid about publishing quickly, and as a result the discovery of the acceleration of the Universe is listed as Riess 1998 / Perlmutter 1999... even though the Perlmutter team had the clear evidence first.

[7:54] Rober1236 Jua: 6 people working in a lab right?

[7:54] Pema Pera: not a lab

[7:54] Pema Pera: theoretical work

[7:54] Prospero Frobozz: Indeed, we'd be clearly shown as merely "confirm" Reiss if it weren't for the fact that we had presented preliminary results at a conference.

[7:54] Pema Pera: spread over the globe

[7:54] Rober1236 Jua: Look I am a massive advocate of Open Sciecne

[7:54] Pema Pera: good point, Pros!

[7:55] Eamu Godenot: Rober1236, you act like we are trying to use this project to coordinate a research project at the LHC.

[7:55] Prospero Frobozz: Rober1236 : the best way to figure out what kind of Open Science works is to let lots of people try things lots of ways and see where they go. If there's an obvious winner model, people will gravitate towards it. We have some demonstrated success with this model.

[7:55] Eamu Godenot: That is not what we're doing.

[7:55] Rober1236 Jua: You need Open Science to accelerate feedback and data collection

[7:55] Rober1236 Jua: and it can really promote theory formation

[7:55] Eamu Godenot: I think you should think of it more like "collaboratively writing a textbook".

[7:55] Pema Pera: Robert, there are two approaches, I think, roughly speaking, bottom up and top down -- we do it grass roots, bottom up, and it sounds like you are recommending top down, is that right?

[7:55] Rober1236 Jua: But what about the fact scientists are in career positions

[7:55] Prospero Frobozz: "open science" is just a description, really... it's not one formalized set or procedures, or a trademarked process

[7:56] Rober1236 Jua: I have installed and lead collaboration projects in the 10,000s

[7:56] Rober1236 Jua: It is what I do, it is what I do research it

[7:56] Rober1236 Jua: It is what I have gotten my gradaute school in

[7:56] Eamu Godenot: Sorry folks, I gotta run.

[7:56] Pema Pera: That's a great question, Robert: and the answer to that is changing (about careers)

[7:56] Eamu Godenot: See you next week.

[7:56] Prospero Frobozz: Well, we're not 10.000s. If we do become 10.000s, that'd be great, but I'd be surprised. Also, it'd be more like Wikipedia, with a small core and lots of contributors, if it gets to that.

[7:57] Rober1236 Jua: It is key to keep workspaces focused on certain projects in controlled ways

[7:57] Rober1236 Jua: firstly you don't want hackers to have access to your files

[7:57] Rober1236 Jua: Seocndly you want to control the process of development of documents

[7:57] Prospero Frobozz: Rober1236 : But, yes, we do -- we want everybody to ahve read access.

[7:57] Prospero Frobozz: And we don't want to have too much control, because too much control = nobody can get anything done.

[7:57] Rober1236 Jua: thirdly you want to control wehn documents are published

[7:57] Prospero Frobozz: Rober1236 : the process you're talking about is for something different from what we're doing here.

[7:58] Rober1236 Jua: This is an open chat, and it is very nice of you to involve me

[7:58] Rober1236 Jua: Frankly 2 years ago the US Fed programs silenced me

[7:58] Rober1236 Jua: Remind me how many open science tools have they got working?

[7:59] Rober1236 Jua: If you want to support a framework for collaboration globally, especially in areas where nobel prizes, grant money in the millions, and repuations are at stake

[7:59] Rober1236 Jua: you need some control over when things are seen and by whom

[7:59] Rober1236 Jua: its no different than any other business

[8:00] Prospero Frobozz: It'd be awesome if we got grant money in th emillions :) But I think we all here recognize that that's not the league we're in here. As for Noble Prizes : you can't plan for those.

[8:00] Pema Pera: We appreciate your feedback, Robert, we are just wondering how you can be so sure about your own opinion that you think you know our needs much better than we do? I find that rather surprising, given that we have been working on code writing and collaborations for decades. . ..

[8:00] Rober1236 Jua: I have been traking Open Science projects for 3 years and no major scientists join because they understand that there is a need to secrets

[8:00] Pema Pera: we may be an exception :)

[8:00] Prospero Frobozz: Rober1236 : what fields of science have you worked in?

[8:00] Pema Pera: you obviously are not familiar with stellar dynamics

[8:01] Rober1236 Jua: Because as I said I do this for a living

[8:01] Prospero Frobozz: Astronomy is probably about the most open science, I believe. If you are in a science where people might want to get patents and commercialize things, it may be different.

[8:01] Pema Pera: where Aarseth and Volker Springel are heroes of the field, because they share everything

[8:01] Rober1236 Jua: I have put in massive programs of information management and reserach

[8:01] Pema Pera wondering how to change the style of the discussion. . ..

[8:01] Rober1236 Jua: And I have done my graduate work on it

[8:01] Rober1236 Jua: this discussion is perfect

[8:01] Prospero Frobozz: heh

[8:01] Pema Pera: wow

[8:01] Pema Pera: amazing

[8:02] Adrian Kosnetyner: lots of people have lots of ideas

[8:02] Pema Pera: that says a lot

[8:02] Prospero Frobozz: This discussion is a SERIOUS sideline from what these meetings are supposed to be about :)

[8:02] Adrian Kosnetyner: doesn't mean it's going to work

[8:02] Paradox Olbers: there's a question of rigidity vsflexibility here... :)

[8:02] Rober1236 Jua: but having seen so many of these open science projects fail because there is no set up for global team collaboration and control of information flow I just didn't want to see one more fail

[8:02] Paradox Olbers: and willingness to alter preconceived notions

[8:02] Rober1236 Jua: I hate to tell you but you are not the first to trive

[8:02] Pema Pera: well, I have to go

[8:03] Prospero Frobozz needs to go to

[8:03] Rober1236 Jua: Well I hope you don't find me rude

[8:03] Pema Pera: thank you all for joining us!

[8:03] Prospero Frobozz: Have fun everybody

[8:03] Rober1236 Jua: I really want to see one of these programs NOT fail

[8:03] Rober1236 Jua: But they keep failing because of the inability to provide a middle ground between secrets and open information

[8:03] Rober1236 Jua: and now I have to court

[8:03] Rober1236 Jua: I thank everyone for their patience

[8:04] Prospero Frobozz: OK, I'm off. Everybody take care.

[8:04] Paradox Olbers: bye everyone

[8:04] Pema Pera: see you all next week! I'll write the summary right away

[8:04] Paradox Olbers: thanks for your input and concern Robert!